Three-year target for Darlington to return to Football League (From Darlington and Stockton Times)

Why come out with downright lies? It will be IMPOSSIBLE to be in the Football League within 3 years as these numptys state. At best we play Evostick First Division Football next season, at BEST mind you, the FA may have other ideas as theseeople renaged on paying their creditors. OK, we win that Division(12/13) then we win the Premier (13/14) then Blue Square North (14/15) then the Blue Square Premier (15/16). Where I come from that adds up to more than THREE, be it years, seasons or whatever. Also the quality of player and the wage bill to achieve what would be a magnificent achievement, would be astronomical. Meanwhile we would be building a ground to attain the required grading of each league each time we progress.......or is a return to the Arena planned in a year or two. Groundsharing at Shildon etc would do for our initial season to get us up and running, I accept that. But we must come back to Darlington, even 1883 accept that. Unless we attract 7,000 plus crowds (and we won't) the situation I've outlined will not be viable. However, if the Arena, which won't be used for anything else, is still available, then I can see the wisdom in 1883's strategy. Off-loading a lot of debt, coming to whatever agreement (not to be made public methinks) with Raj and taking two steps backwards to move forwards may not be a bad idea. Fans who don't like the Arena will not be pleased but from a financial point of view it would make sense. The people involved in 1883 should now come out and clarify the situation, making statements and putting dates/deadlines in print obviously makes the average fan, like myself, put two and two together and come up with five. Am I right ?, or totally off beam ?, only 1883 can answer that

doonhamer wrote:
Why come out with downright lies? It will be IMPOSSIBLE to be in the Football League within 3 years as these numptys state. At best we play Evostick First Division Football next season, at BEST mind you, the FA may have other ideas as theseeople renaged on paying their creditors. OK, we win that Division(12/13) then we win the Premier (13/14) then Blue Square North (14/15) then the Blue Square Premier (15/16). Where I come from that adds up to more than THREE, be it years, seasons or whatever. Also the quality of player and the wage bill to achieve what would be a magnificent achievement, would be astronomical. Meanwhile we would be building a ground to attain the required grading of each league each time we progress.......or is a return to the Arena planned in a year or two. Groundsharing at Shildon etc would do for our initial season to get us up and running, I accept that. But we must come back to Darlington, even 1883 accept that. Unless we attract 7,000 plus crowds (and we won't) the situation I've outlined will not be viable. However, if the Arena, which won't be used for anything else, is still available, then I can see the wisdom in 1883's strategy. Off-loading a lot of debt, coming to whatever agreement (not to be made public methinks) with Raj and taking two steps backwards to move forwards may not be a bad idea. Fans who don't like the Arena will not be pleased but from a financial point of view it would make sense. The people involved in 1883 should now come out and clarify the situation, making statements and putting dates/deadlines in print obviously makes the average fan, like myself, put two and two together and come up with five. Am I right ?, or totally off beam ?, only 1883 can answer that

Im with you on this one Doonhammer - How can these people manage a club and knock the previous owners if they cannot speak the truth or do such a simple task as add up how many years it will take to get back in the football league.

DFC1883 will not play football again in the football league unless they are backed by a person/s who can financially back the rise.

The ground share option works, but you have to split the costs with your host club (they are not a charity), you still have the wages of the current players to pay (they are not a charity), you will have the wages of players/ staff for the 2012/13 season (they don't come free) all this from how many paying fans? lets say you get an average gate of 1100 for the first season - does the maths add up to make DFC1883 a cash rich club able to climb out of the Evostick 1st Division?

I hope so but as a businessman, I know it will never happen. So that means we are a community club ran by muppets again!!

I'm delighted that the club has been saved. There are a lot of struggles ahead and I think it is too early to talk about getting back in the football league. The objective must be to get a viable place to play in darlington then we can start to make plans. The club will need financial support from business. Even at Northern League level clubs rely on financial support from local business. Having said that Darlington can get back in the football league one day. Other clubs have done it so why can't we? It will be difficult, there will be problems but it can be done.

OK.The deal has been done,but has yet to be ratified by the FA,or whatever it is they do in these circumstances.It looks likely that the club will drop another two divisions,and that is a long way down,so I am alarmed by the claim that Darlo will be playing league football in three years time.Really?
With the best fairy godmother in the world,I think this is a big ask.I'm not saying the club cant come back,but there has to be some realism in the forward planning,especially as they are asking for our money again.
I will only commit to investing,if there is a viable plan on the table.
ps.Doonhammer.I am sorry that you have been subjected to abusive insults by a so-called fan,who didnt like the opinion you expressed.Ignore them,you are entitled to express your views.

Football league in 3 seasons? I remember seeing Newport County's last away league fixture - at Darlington - before they went bust and were relegated down several non-league divisions. That was 20-odd years ago.

Idontknowaboutyoubut wrote:
OK.The deal has been done,but has yet to be ratified by the FA,or whatever it is they do in these circumstances.It looks likely that the club will drop another two divisions,and that is a long way down,so I am alarmed by the claim that Darlo will be playing league football in three years time.Really?
With the best fairy godmother in the world,I think this is a big ask.I'm not saying the club cant come back,but there has to be some realism in the forward planning,especially as they are asking for our money again.
I will only commit to investing,if there is a viable plan on the table.
ps.Doonhammer.I am sorry that you have been subjected to abusive insults by a so-called fan,who didnt like the opinion you expressed.Ignore them,you are entitled to express your views.

Cheers for your comments, and yes, I should ignore the insults from the low life that can't give a constructive opinion of their own.

There is no doubt that they way this has been done is not a good outcome.

A new football license surely means it will have to start at the bottom as it cant use the current license ie NewCo.

I thought the rules were two divisons plus already relegated, bearing in mind we cant play in the conference leagues as we did not pay the debt.

I guess the FA will confirm.

They have not involved any opinion from the community at all so why trust them. It would have been a five minute task to email a survey monkey to the potential investors which they did not, so they have already ignored the fans and the potential shareholders.

I think supporting Darlington RA has a better chance of success and I would not be supprised if this is the actual end for the club as opposed to a new beginning.

I will not now invest unless I see very concrete details and solid business plan projections.

Even then I probably wont invest as I think shafting all the creditors is wrong, and they cant make it up easily with out setting legal precedence which could bring all the debts back to the new club.

I am not convinced these people really know what they are doing.

I am also not convinced the deal is actually complete maybe in principal as long as the have enough money to honour the deal they have made.
What about Darl 2009, I am sure these people wont simply stand by and not think of a legal challenge. You may find Raj tries to block the license at the FA given he still owns the current license.
I still think there are a lot of what ifs.

I think the complete deal should be placed on record in any new investment vehicle to see the actual statement as opposed to the heresay reporting.

Lets hope mr singh does not put a spanner in the works. IF the club starts in thet evo stick league they have every chance of bouncing back at least to semi pro level in 3 years. If they ground share at bishop auckland they will have a ground at evo stick league standard already. Yeah years ago teams like aldershot and Newport county had to start in the equivlant like the wearside league but the FA seems tlo have been less ahrsh on clubs from the blue square in recent years by playing them in leagues like the evo stick division 1. Chester, halifax, farsley, afc telford spring to mind and they have all bounced back. yeah money talks at evo stick and even northen league level but come on £270,000 a year to retn the arena is too expensive for the blue square even!

Q1 does the maths add up to make DFC1883 a cash rich club able to climb out of the Evostick 1st Division?

Ans: Yes, in the EvoStik 1, the highest average gate is around 300. If you say we'd average 1100, that's nearly 4 times the gate of the best supported club in that division. This means we'd be able to provide a bigger playing budget and attract the better players so to speak

Q2) There is no doubt that they way this has been done is not a good outcome.

Ans: Totally agree, morally for the creditors it isn't right, but it was either that or no club, each way the creditors would of got nothing. RS wouldn't waive his loan therefore we couldn't complete the CVA. 1883 will be working with local businesses to try and refund them in some way over the next few years

Q3) A new football license surely means it will have to start at the bottom as it cant use the current license ie NewCo.

Ans: No, 1883 have been in dialog with the FA over the last few months. Because RS holds the old licence, the FA understand it has been taken from us in exceptional circumstances. Therefore we will apply for a new licence to play football and be accepted where the FA place us, likely to be the EvoStik League.

Q4) I think supporting Darlington RA has a better chance of success and I would not be supprised if this is the actual end for the club as opposed to a new beginning.

Ans: If that's your opinion then fair enough. However Darlo RA currently reside in Northern League Division 2 with a ground that only enables it to currently play in NL Division 1. No club is currently moving out of the Northern League due to travelling costs in the league above therefore in my opinion RA has zero chance of success apart from maybe being promoted to Division 1.

5) Even then I probably wont invest as I think shafting all the creditors is wrong, and they cant make it up easily with out setting legal precedence which could bring all the debts back to the new club.

Ans: Shafting creditors is morally wrong, but again I've explained the position on this in a previous answer. It hasn't set a legal precedence as Luton Town, Leeds United and Boston United have gone down the same route of exiting administration in the past

Q6) I am also not convinced the deal is actually complete maybe in principal as long as the have enough money to honour the deal they have made.

Ans: The deal was completed at 1557 yesterday. "£70k was paid to Harvey Madden on the 15th February when we originally signed the asset purchase agreement". "The balance of £30k to complete the asset purchase is due in a couple of weeks, and is intended to be met through the future fundraising (bearing in mind we had pledges which should meet that liability). There are no other liabilities."

Q7 What about Darl 2009, I am sure these people wont simply stand by and not think of a legal challenge. You may find Raj tries to block the license at the FA given he still owns the current license.
I still think there are a lot of what ifs.

Ans: By Darl 2009 do you mean the creditors of that company? The deal is done as far as 1883 are concerned.
Raj cannot block the grant of a licence from the Football Association

Q8 I think the complete deal should be placed on record in any new investment vehicle to see the actual statement as opposed to the heresay reporting.

Ans: The 1883 board will be putting on an open evening in Darlington in the next week or so, whereby they hope to have business plans ready for potential investors to look at as well as to ask any questions you may have.

Hope some of this clears things up somewhat

QuakersAM, only a fan as you say you know a lot more than most of us. However I appreciate your answers, I assume on pledges you mean outside Crowdcube, obviously CrowdCube are supposedly to refund according to what is being reported.

On a new pitch you may get more or less we wont know until they put on the new pitch.

It is my belief that they failed to use CrowdCube and access the investors effectively, I would have put considerably more into the investment if they had asked for our opinion and additional help.
From Conference North the path was much clearer.

It will now take considerably more to convince me to invest in any new Pitch on Crowdcube.

I assume on pledges you mean outside Crowdcube, obviously CrowdCube are supposedly to refund according to what is being reported.

Ans: I assume so yes. CrowdCube will be refunding everyone who has pledged using their system. I'm not sure how the re-investment is being handled, although I'm not sure they're going to use CrowdCube this time.
I'm sure a lot more people would of put more in, CrowdCube did flatline when the cash shares took so long to go in, I don't think enough was to done to keep the enthusiasm going for it, but c'est la vie.

i bet Raj has been on the phone to Jenny

Quakersam, interesting comments, perhaps you do know more than most about the wheeling and dealing that's been done. However, a question for you. 1) The Creditors were never going to get a CVA, Raj was going to block it without a shadow of doubt. So no monies repaid ok. 2) A "Phoenix" club starting from scratch would have a better chance, especially if a home ground could be found in Darlo after a year or so, and no ill feeling would be left behind. Do you agree?. The point that I'm making is at least one (and possibly more) creditors is a potential investor. That investor would have donated to a "Phoenix" club but not to an organisation that renages on it's responsibilities to the very community that it hopes to gain finance from. Therefore I think 1883 are taking a huge gamble, (given that a considerable amount of money has to be paid out in the next few weeks), by seemingly relying on the generosity of the business people of Darlington. When Scott Thornberry and a certain Gentleman from South Shields were instrumental in the birth of fanzines, Mission Impossible and Where's The Money Gone, several years ago, I was kind enough to advertise/sponsor on a regular basis. That is fact. What is also fact is that I am a creditor, but also had pledged to invest to help save the club. I do not intend to attend any meetings re The Business Community and 1883 as I feel something is amiss in their calculations for the future. I will withdraw my pledge and will only reconsider at some time in the future once I am certain as to what the ambitions/business plans/ etc both on the footballing side and commercial, of Darlington FC are. Hopefully there are not too many like minded people out there, if so 1883 may have bitten off more than they can chew. P.S. If you know Scott he may be able to enlighten you as to my involvement.

Interesting Doonhamer, I am going through a similar thread with Quakersam. I am an investor but not a creditor
I have however come to the same opinion and conclusion as yourself with respect to my pledge.

What a stupid prediction - smack of our Georges premiership in 5 years or whatever - if that's supposed to encourage investors sack the board they haven't clue

I wont be re-investing and imagine thats the same for many others too

No ground, no Manager, no players, no money, no league to play in even if they had a team..they need more than luck....still "You're Darlo 'till you die"......at this rate the club is dead before we are!!!!!

My view is that 1883 are to thanked having made the best of a bad job in a short time, as the football-only stadium farce and muddied creditor brinkmanship couldn't be left to drag on & on.

It is far better to launch a re-start now, than suffer another half-**** "Colin Todd" situation or no football at all in July/August.

The 3 year target seems too ambitious or just a busy individual's gaff, but at least with fans in control there will be more ambition than the last decades of institutionalised bleeding the fans and decline.

At least two seasons of stabilisation in the conference premier would seem to be necessary, especially if we are competing against the usual sugar daddy clubs & demoted clubs retaining football league players.

I for one will keep the faith and my investment with my club, that I have supported for 45 years, so that fit for purpose stands can be built in Darlington.

Go back to the time of the Barrow game and think. Are we now better off than 100% sure extinction.

Nobody has a monopoly of brains and with the complex and sensitive nature of discussions and time pressure over the past two months DFC wouldn't have gained any credit by opening up a public debate and having the sort of fans dissent shown in this chat room.

DFC should be a big player in Evo Stick territory, but the top priority is to build some stands over the next 5 years, while also anually developing a team capable of sustainable success.

It's a challenge, so we need the current fans, future fans, sponsors & politicians to buy in and be positive, so that we experience more fun than doom & gloom.

There will be help that fans can provide to such an initiative(e.g. fundraising & building), rather than sulking about a supposed less than perfect solution.

The sulkers will have an opportunity to query and find out the history, but can NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER also participate in future decision making (via the trust)

All the Best Darlo, the fans deserve it!

neilj_dafts wrote:
My view is that 1883 are to thanked having made the best of a bad job in a short time, as the football-only stadium farce and muddied creditor brinkmanship couldn't be left to drag on & on.

It is far better to launch a re-start now, than suffer another half-**** "Colin Todd" situation or no football at all in July/August.

The 3 year target seems too ambitious or just a busy individual's gaff, but at least with fans in control there will be more ambition than the last decades of institutionalised bleeding the fans and decline.

At least two seasons of stabilisation in the conference premier would seem to be necessary, especially if we are competing against the usual sugar daddy clubs & demoted clubs retaining football league players.

I for one will keep the faith and my investment with my club, that I have supported for 45 years, so that fit for purpose stands can be built in Darlington.

Go back to the time of the Barrow game and think. Are we now better off than 100% sure extinction.

Nobody has a monopoly of brains and with the complex and sensitive nature of discussions and time pressure over the past two months DFC wouldn't have gained any credit by opening up a public debate and having the sort of fans dissent shown in this chat room.

DFC should be a big player in Evo Stick territory, but the top priority is to build some stands over the next 5 years, while also anually developing a team capable of sustainable success.

It's a challenge, so we need the current fans, future fans, sponsors & politicians to buy in and be positive, so that we experience more fun than doom & gloom.

There will be help that fans can provide to such an initiative(e.g. fundraising & building), rather than sulking about a supposed less than perfect solution.

The sulkers will have an opportunity to query and find out the history, but can NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER also participate in future decision making (via the trust)

All the Best Darlo, the fans deserve it!

Some sensible comments from an obviously loyal and very realistic fan, quite commendable. However in a democracy everyone is allowed to voice their opinion(s). To fob people off who don't agree with your way of thinking by classing them as dissenters is way out of order. With the 1% contribution from oddballs taken into account, the other 99% have an obvious love, loyalty and devotion to Darlington FC. To point out something that they think may be wrong, could go wrong or simply has not been clarified enough to fill them with confidence does not make them any less of a loyal fan who is prepared to help/sponsor/donate in whatever way they can. The only difference is that they are more cautious and there is nothing wrong with that my friend.

As someone who has taken a massive amount of stick for years from fans my only comment is a simple one. Well done all involved with saving the club, and please learn from this obvious mistake caused by enthusiasm,(which in no way makes it a lie),and be sure to be accurate when you are possibly being quoted, because the detractors will love every mistake you make verbally.

Ok doonhamer, you've made some decent points (for a change haha)

1) Raj was always going to block a CVA if he couldnt get his clauses (arena development and dan burn money). So yes a CVA would have failed therefore nothing will be paid out (well a small amount will as the old company does have a bit of money. Oldco also has 50% sell on fees from dan burn etc which will go to creditors.

2) I disagree with you on this one. Say the club would have gone bust, creditors would have got nothing from out and out liquidation. In the scenario we have now, they will receive some money.
I don't believe we would have been better off
A) no football for a year - potential loss of fanbase would be massive
B) Phoenix clubs have to start at Northern League level, probably Division 2, we will be either 2 or 3 leagues above this depending on where the FA place us
C) Why would there be no ill-feeling to a phoenix club? The other club would still have gone bust and the creditors would still have been shafted.

You say 1883 have renaged on its responsibilities yet you said Raj would always block a CVA, you cant have it both ways.
This is no fault of 1883's that creditors have been shafted. The blame lies at one man's door and that is Mr Singh!

I appreciate people will be skeptical and opinions are just that but lets not go spouting inaccurate information, this isnt aimed at anybody directly.
1883 have had to make the best of constantly moving goalposts, and have given an awful lot of time and effort for this club for free away from their day jobs. I for one am extremely greatful I will have a club to watch next season, wherever that maybe

Well Quakersam, we agree to disagree, only time will tell if what you say comes true and creditors do receive something. On the point of a Phoenix club still retaining ill feeling, I'll quote an example that you are probably unaware of. When Gateshead lost their League status in 1960 they were registered as Gateshead A.F.C. After several years in the doldrums they folded in 1972 under the guise of a merger with then Northern Premier League club, South Shields. They registered under the name of Gateshead United for a couple of seasons and then became Gateshead F.C. After several years, in the mid 1980,s when in the Gola League (Conference) an unwitting programme editor had a seasons programmes covers printed wih the name Gateshead A.F.C. on. Nobody noticed the gaff at first, but one or two older creditors did. The old club had owed thousands, people were after the blood of the Directors/Officials of the former club, none of whom were involved with the club when the gaff was made. A brilliant solicitor and an acceptance by the creditors that the Editor had made a genuine mistake saved the club from going out of existence again. To this day they are Gatesead F.C. and can never be A.F.C. (as most clubs are) again. That's why Telford United became A.F.C. Telford, and Halifax Town became A.F.C. Halifax etc. Creditors then backed the new clubs with no animosity shown, because they were completely new set ups. Why would Darlos creditors show animosity to a phoenix club as you seem to think ? I do appreciate the time taken by individuals to salvage our club and at the end of the day we are, or at least should be, on the same side. Given our fall from grace in recent seasons I personally don't see anything to crow about whether we are in the Evostik First Division or The Northern League, as long as we have a club. Starting at the bottom with a clean slate, no debt, and credibility would give me pride in the club that we had done everything honestly. We have taken a slightly different route, rightly or wrongly, only time will tell, and I hope that things work out for everyone involved.

It wouldnt of mattered which route we took though would it.

No CVA - creditors get very little, we play football next season and still retain history of current club

Liquidate - creditors get nothing. We don't play for a whole season. Complete new club with no history. I can't see as many sticking around for a year waiting for northern league football to be honest, not after a whole year out. Interest would wain. There are alot of people who wouldnt be interested in a phoenix.
Number 1 priority was to save the club and its history in one form or another. The intention at the start was to make sure creditors weren't hurt again but when multiple roadblocks are put in your way and goalposts moved, it became the only option.

I feel for local businesses, but 1883 will be working with them over the next few years to try and compensate them somehow.

We've got the club now, we are all responsible for it now. It is our chance to do it right

To begin this 3 year return to the football league, an impossibility by the by, we seem to have overlooked an important item. We have no manager. So where is the iconic figure who will lead us out of the wilderness? It took Moses 40 years to reach the Promised Land, let's hope it it doesn't take that long. Amen.